Curse

Omega X · Apr 29, 2007, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by kooomar

I kind of want to know what others think about this, but alot of people are saying they think ANET made hero AI WORSE so that people would PuG more. In my opinion, they dont have that ability, i mean, yeah, they COULD do that, but that takes actual programming, and as lazy as they are for everything else, do you actually think they would do more work for the game when cupcake skins need to be developed?

I love sarcasm.

They very much have a LOT of control of the AI. The question is, did they honestly do it on purpose or is it an actual bug that needs fixing?

Racthoh · Apr 29, 2007, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Probably means she has 20 in Spawning too. Only way you can really tell is that Necros have 20 Soul Reaping...

All NPCs and enemies have 20 in their attributes on hard mode (at least in Cantha anyway). Which is why having a full henchmen team on the other side of Vizunah and Unwaking Waters makes it rather easy.

Andisa Kalorn · Apr 29, 2007, 08:34 PM // 20:34

It can't just be the increased speed of the monsters causing these problems.

Last night I was very amused by Dunkoro's antics in hard mode. I was just farming sunspear points in wurms so I didn't care if the heroes/henchies died. At one point, I was fighting a group of monsters, and for one careless second, I targetted a monster in an entirely different group. I changed targets right away.

Lo and behold, Dunkoro goes after the previous target. Even though he was set to guard, he not only went out of my aggro bubble to get to this monster, he also went out of radar range, to get around an obstacle. He kept going, all the way to the monster. Once he aggroed it, he reversed course and brought them right back to the party.

This wasn't a problem with the wurms, but it could have been disastrous elsewhere in hard mode. Although this episode was quite funny at the time, afterwards I had to wonder why we would be given hero controls if they don't listen to them. If this is intended, they should at least get rid of hero controls in hard mode, so we don't think we can control heroes when we can't.

Theus · Apr 30, 2007, 12:05 PM // 12:05

So...how about that Hero AI.

Bryant Again · Apr 30, 2007, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theus

So...how about that Hero AI.

It's actually quite realistic! At random times in an explorable or mission, Dunkoro - while in the midst of battle - will suddenly stop doing any action and won't move at all. This brilliantly simulates the random incidents of AFK that you experience in PUG groups, and thus whiping your freaking group. BRILLIANT!

Draikin · Apr 30, 2007, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andisa Kalorn

Lo and behold, Dunkoro goes after the previous target. Even though he was set to guard, he not only went out of my aggro bubble to get to this monster, he also went out of radar range, to get around an obstacle. He kept going, all the way to the monster. Once he aggroed it, he reversed course and brought them right back to the party.

That bug has been around for a while now, what happens is that they get locked on a target and ignore any following commands until they manage to hit that target. That means that if the target is running away from them they'll continue to follow it wherever it goes. Even though there has been an update that improved their response on calling, this bug never goes away just like the bug where they try to cast a spell but cancel it repeatedly.

That said, it would be nice to hear something from Anet regarding this bug.

Kas · Apr 30, 2007, 01:23 PM // 13:23

I normally don't bash hero AI but after seeing how well they perform when they face traps really helped to chose my side on this matter.
"lol found a Trap! Let's go find all of them"
And then running around like a headless chicken, triggering every damn last one of those traps on the way. I sat in awe as their lifebars jumped from 100 to 0 in a matter of seconds. Simultanously. While they continued their run through more and more traps :X

Cebe · Apr 30, 2007, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

At the moment, these problems make is impossible to use heroes and henchmen to obtain the vanquisher titles. And finding human player to kill 25,000 monsters in 151 explorable areas is unlikely and unrealistic...

Eh? I'm 18/33 areas vanquished in Cantha... some has been solo with hench, some has been with one other human. All the rest has been filled with heroes and hench...I've had no major problems. Due to the enemy AI now they seem to naturally go for monks - no matter if the monk is human OR hench - so if the hench monk is under attack a lot I may have to flag them further back. Other than that hench is perfectly fine for clearing out Cantha.

RTSFirebat · Apr 30, 2007, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Hero AI is broken, not only do they no longer kite. They don't follow flags or orders!

There been a couple of times I've flagged my heros away so they run away with me, yet the continue to fight needlessly. Warriors are particually bad at this.

Evilsod · Apr 30, 2007, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTSFirebat

Hero AI is broken, not only do they no longer kite. They don't follow flags or orders!

There been a couple of times I've flagged my heros away so they run away with me, yet the continue to fight needlessly. Warriors are particually bad at this.

They always seem to make the worst possible choice when your fleeing. If you're in the clear the monks WILL let everyone degen to death instead of trying to heal you, or will ignore the ones near to death when they actually do stop to heal (ie you took away the flag).
If they're fleeing with an enemy on they're tail they WILL stop to heal someone who doesn't need healing and get slashed to ribbons... or lose alot of health, try to heal that off and die anyway.

Juk3n · Apr 30, 2007, 06:08 PM // 18:08

hmm, i'm sorry guys..i don't buy it.

Hero AI is about as good as Hench AI, which inturn is round about..at a small stretch as good as Enemy AI.

My Heroes got me my Tyrian Gaurdian title, they gave the Lich a beatdown, they gave Glint a beat down, they survived an onslaught @ThK.

(This isnt directed at anyone in particular) - maybe u just suck at controling ur heroes.
It HAPPENDS, ive seen guys play, that suck..and when they bring their heroes into the group..it doesn't mater what skills they give the heroes, they could have identical ones to my Uber heroes..but for some reason..the other guys heroes suck..and mine don't.

Control your dogs guys, imho - they only suck if u do.!

/ProtSpirit

IlikeGW · Apr 30, 2007, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Hahahaha. Yes, Juk3n, thousands of very experienced GW players suddenly just suck and don't know anything about the game. Might I ask how this happened, is someone sneaking around inserting false memories in our heads of how heroes work?

El Panty Bandito · Apr 30, 2007, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Try this...instead of running your normal mode "kill all" hero builds...try maybe...*cough* *cough* more defensive skills! Believe it or not, your Searing Flames Ele hero doesn't need 7 fire skills and a lame rez! Try giving him extinguish, or a hex removal....Try giving your monks some damn stances...Try blinding/weakening...shutting down the enemy...instead of using your all out attack skills on you and your heros bar. I have had no problems vanquishing ANY (so far) areas because I knew to adjust my heros bars to be more defense. It may take an extra minute to kill a mob, but damnit, vanquishing most areas with +moral boost on me and all hero/hench must mean I am doing something correct.

What I use(d):
(1) W/MO Koss with 1/2 attack, 1/4 defense, 1/4 shutdown, (interupts/weakening)
(2) Me/N Norgu with 1/4 attack, 1/4 shutdown, 1/4 defense, 1/4 interupt
(3) E/MO Hero Ele with 3/4 attack/degen, 1/4 prot/heal.

and in areas with tons of bodies, my (instead of E/MO)
(4) N/MO Olias MM (bone fiend / shambling ) with tainted flesh (works excedingly well), and an enchant removal, and self heal by taste of death.

(and please don't cry/complain about the fractions I used...it's just a damn example, not a precise freaking measurment)

All Heros set to: Guard

And I am a monk, so I only bring 1 other henchie monk.

I have run all kinds of monk builds, doesnt matter, all mine work. Healing hands (please don't flame this skill) works very well in hard mode because the enemy likes attacking 1 thing at a time. (although this doesn't happen every time.) and of course, even with 1-3 points in prot, I bring prot spirit. (heard about those dang Ele/Rit bosses in Cantha?)

Of course...all hero's have runes and insignias and max weapons.

EDIT: added MM hero

Oofus · Apr 30, 2007, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It's actually quite realistic! At random times in an explorable or mission, Dunkoro - while in the midst of battle - will suddenly stop doing any action and won't move at all. This brilliantly simulates the random incidents of AFK that you experience in PUG groups, and thus whiping your freaking group. BRILLIANT!

QFT!

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTSFirebat

There been a couple of times I've flagged my heros away so they run away with me, yet the continue to fight needlessly. Warriors are particually bad at this.

Not to mention the other end of that spectrum; when Zhed and Master charge off to fight foes who are 3 times farther away then their agro-circle limits, even though they're flagged to stay put.

Evilsod · Apr 30, 2007, 07:41 PM // 19:41

*looks at his current hero set up*

Norgu - Empathy, Backfire, Mistrust, Drain Enchantments, Power Spike, Power Drain, Mantra of Recovery, Restore Life.

For hex heavy areas, Mistrust/MoR change for Shatter Hex and Hex Eater Vortex (works like a charm in Perdition Rock). Mistrust >> Grenths Balance enemies.

Olias - Spiteful Spirit, Reckless Haste, Price of Failure, Enfeebling Blood, Signet of Lost Souls, Blood Ritual, Awaken the Blood, Ressurection Chant/Res Signet.

Primarly to soften up the melee.

Sousuke - Eruption, Stoning, Ebon Hawk, Ward Against Melee, Ward Against Elements, Earth Attunement, Elemental Attunement, Res Signet.

Change wards around for the area. Ebon Hawk should probably be changed, but i haven't really decided on what to. Dual Att. because heros suck at energy management and i would really like wards to be available on demand.

Zhed - Ward Against Harm, Blurred Vision, Maelstrom, rest i just decide on depending on the area.

Normally only take Zhed when i need the Ward Against Harm.

Dunkoro/Tahlkora - LoD and ZB Prot, working on the builds for the moment though. Tahlkora has done me very well as the lone monk in 4 man teams, even as prot, but suffers heavily against degen, even with Alesia.

MoW - MM, not really decided on anything specific, but only melee based minions, no Fiends.

I tend to run BHA/Apply. Normally run with Norgu, Olias and Tahlkora in 4 man, same again in 6 man (trying Dunkoro out once the AFK weekend event is over). 8 man, i tend to scrap hero monks and use the Henchman, favour the Warder as melee is usually the most destructive enemy.

I have plenty of defence (which was a major problem in Di'Alessio Seaboard), the defence normally works as the offence too. Running BHA myself i can usually force heros to concentrate on a dazed target (usually a monk) while i try to interrupt a more deadly target.

El Panty Bandito · Apr 30, 2007, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Very nice "Evilsod". That is another great example of hard mode heros with defense. I would take those heros with me into hard mode anyday. Great builds.

EDIT: I would like to add another 2 cents:

Attention people with Monk Hero's: Do not make them use skills like; [E]Healing Hand's, Healing Seed, [E]Life Sheath, [E]Shield of Deflection, Restful Breeze, Supp. Spirit, [E]Air of Enchantment, [E]Mark of Protection. (will add more later if I can think of some more).

Reason being: Hero Monks will NOTuse these skills correctly. Want proof? just bring a MM out in normal mode, equip these skills on hero monk, and hero monk will try to heal minions with Life Sheath or SoD or Air of Enchantment. Hero Monk need direct heals and direct prots. Too many times have I seen someone with a hero monk using heal seed, although it is a great spell, the hero monk rarely puts it on the correct ally.

Once your hero monks start using smarter builds (take time to really look at your heros builds to see if they are using skills correctly), you will really beging to start Vanquishing some areas!

Str0b0 · Apr 30, 2007, 08:02 PM // 20:02

I find that my heros behave extremely oddly in HM. My monks act like warriors. My warriors act like monks and my caster don't cast they just wand things. The only way I can get any use out of them is to get really nitty gritty with my micro managment. In effect I end up playing 4 characters instead of concentrating on just m ine and letting the AI handle it's own business. It's not a problem in the easily vanquished areas but I was trying to do Ice Floes the other night and Talkhora would not cast protection enchants and kept charging the mobs. My Morgahn, who is supposed to function as a tank kept kiting away from everything I called as a target after it got just one miniscule hit on him. Olias as an SS was utterly useless. He didn't even use his bar unless I managed it for him. He was content to just wand things and die.

Evilsod · Apr 30, 2007, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Panty Bandito

Attention people with Monk Hero's: Do not make them use skills like; [E]Healing Hand's, Healing Seed, [E]Life Sheath, [E]Shield of Deflection, Restful Breeze, Supp. Spirit, [E]Air of Enchantment, [E]Mark of Protection. (will add more later if I can think of some more).

Hehe, i found them to be hit n miss with Healing Seed/Hands. But they can be used to great effect if you turn them off and cast them yourself. I only gave them Healing Hands though when i was originally leveling them. As low level monks they're the first target for every single mob x10, nothing other than HH could save them.

Why not Life Sheath though? I mean sure... they cast it on completely the wrong things at times. But all AI monks do it. They seem to love countering -1 vampiric regen with Protective Spirit and Shielding Hands/SoA along with Heal Other. If the problem is that they don't cast it at all then well... But if they use it on the wrong targets its duration is reasonably long so should still be quite effective.

MoP... yeah, i gave it 1 of mine for some reason once, uses it like an idiot.

I mean all AI monks try to heal minions... but i hardly see them doing that as a good reason to avoid to bringing particular skills. I rarely use a hero MM when i'm out n about in HM anyway. Only used it throughout most of the Elonian missions because i did them with 2 guildies who have alot more sense than a hero so kill and survive more effectively without heaps of defence.

ChaoticCoyote · Apr 30, 2007, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

I find that my heros behave extremely oddly in HM. My monks act like warriors. My warriors act like monks and my caster don't cast they just wand things. The only way I can get any use out of them is to get really nitty gritty with my micro managment. In effect I end up playing 4 characters instead of concentrating on just m ine and letting the AI handle it's own business.

And therein lies the difference between us and folk like Evilsod, I suspect.

They are willing to micromanage heroes.

We don't want to.

I've found that I can, indeed, vanquish areas I had thought impossible a few days ago. To do so, I need to run my heroes as if I were playing four characters. Yes, it can be done.

But I don't find it fun.

This is one reason I gave up on RTS games. Back in the days of Warcraft 2 and Age of Empires 1, I was active and successful in tournaments. But as these games evolved, they started requiring more and more micromanagement. And they became work, not play.

GW HM is work, and not very interesting work at that (since it's just a tougher version of material I've already done.)

I do not want to micromanage heroes; in fact, I only run their command bars to keep an eye on their energy. What's the point in giving them an AI if I need to completely control them?

I'd rather PuG through Guardian and Vanquisher, but there simply aren't enough people to do it. I won't dump the guild I created for friends and family just so I can get some silly titles. And so I've just given up on GW for the moment, other than helping guildies with "normal" things.

Jade · May 01, 2007, 11:00 PM // 23:00

But back on track here. I'm yet another one to have problems with the hero AI. It's all been said previously so I'll just throw in my support with the above 80 some odd posts.

Please, for crying out loud Anet, make heroes do thier jobs! Make healers heal and make damage dealers deal damage. Unless of course someone decided that the heroes new job is to do nothing except stand there and die.